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I am addressing this very seriously to EVERY lawyer with legal expertise in copyright infringement and fair use, and I'm also addressing this to any lawyer well-versed in the legal statutes on internet child pornography.

As I'm sure many of you already know, pornish_pixies was permanently deleted today by Livejournal.com, along with a number of other communities with "incest" as an interest, an incomplete list of which is here.

Straight up, people. What are our options as a fandom to fight this? What are all our options to fight this, and how can we as a fandom collectively work to deal with Six Apart in this issue?

Please respond, because I really, really want to get started on the part where the fandom rallies together to make our voices heard by Six Apart.



( 248 comments — Leave a comment )
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May. 30th, 2007 07:13 am (UTC)
Is there anyway we can call descrimination? Are communities being targeted for mentions of "slash" or non heterosexual pairings? Are these being seen as pedophile related? Is "slash" a red flag word for these people?
May. 30th, 2007 08:34 am (UTC)
probably, but being gay isn't illegal...
(no subject) - cmwinters - May. 30th, 2007 08:52 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - bookshop - May. 30th, 2007 08:53 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - cmwinters - May. 30th, 2007 09:26 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - zing_och - May. 30th, 2007 05:59 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - longlongwaytogo - May. 30th, 2007 09:02 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - cmwinters - May. 30th, 2007 09:27 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - longlongwaytogo - May. 30th, 2007 09:29 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - cmwinters - May. 30th, 2007 09:56 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - starchildemt - May. 31st, 2007 02:07 am (UTC) - Expand
May. 30th, 2007 07:23 am (UTC)
I have a question tho--why is Lj under legal pressure here? Why are 'their backs against the wall'? that part I dont know enough about.
May. 30th, 2007 11:07 pm (UTC)
Very likely advertiser pressure. It's the same way TV shows get targeted.
(no subject) - elfwreck - May. 31st, 2007 07:43 am (UTC) - Expand
May. 30th, 2007 07:58 am (UTC)
Rather than LJ, is there any kind of legal action we could take against Warriors for Innocence themselves?

They are where the real problem lies. Everywhere else i can see, in spite of LJ's final relent, they had been trying to get out of the issue with these people and support the users here. Even WfI's site says this.
May. 30th, 2007 08:07 am (UTC)
Interests are used in order to meet people with similar interests. We sign a right to privacy; these interests should not be used against us. Supporting an illegal act is not the same as committing one; thus, no illegal action has been taken. Besides which, these are very real issues, that need to be written about, and explore. Also, doing so without through investigation is ridiculous; some may list it as a joke, or as part of an rpg. It even does some good perhaps, for people who -are- interested in such things to work out their frustrations in a fictional community. Also, restricting creativity is ridiculous. There are no legal rules to the internet-- rather, not very many. The main thing is the difference between something illegal, and liking illegal things. I've playe grand theft auto; I like the idea of running off with someone's car. That doesn't mean I plan to do it. That they're only cracking down on 'sex offenses' is another ridiculous element. If they want to focus on the illegal, then they should focus on the entire spectrum of what is illegal (interests such as 'getting high' and whatnot). All in all, its a very small number of people obliterating communities with no chance to even DEFEND one's self is extreamly 'unamerican'.
May. 30th, 2007 08:30 am (UTC)
I can foresee massive amounts of fans going underground (further).

This is absolutely insane. I always thought one of the things about LJ Abuse was that any claims made would be thoroughly checked out. Someone's gotten trigger happy here.

It's reminding me of the massive deletes on Deviantart for naughty and explicit underage fanart drawings/illustrations of fictional characters, even though the porn law states that fictional characters don't count because they aren't real children. That didn't stop them from deleting a massive amount of arts, though.
(Deleted comment)
May. 30th, 2007 10:19 am (UTC)
Paid accounts would probably just get refunded. There isn't much legal recourse that can be taken.
(no subject) - unperfectwolf - May. 30th, 2007 10:25 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - miya808 - May. 30th, 2007 10:30 am (UTC) - Expand
May. 30th, 2007 09:26 am (UTC)
Information on WFI
moriath posted the following on fandom_wank on journalfen:

Might this be the proof that these people aren't a legitimate organization?

From suesviews2 . blogspot . com/2007_03_01_archive.html (no actual link in order to discourage them trolling us)
"Many of you already know about my 'other site', Warriors For Innocence. For those of you who don't, go on over and take a look. I started it to make a difference. I started it to have an outlet to fight the evil monsters of the world who prey on our children.

Feel free to take a look around. We have many articles on how predators groom the parents and their victims. We have a Parent's Guide and Internet Safety Page that we are in the process of expanding. We also started a Missing Children Page.

You see, I intend to stop child predators in their tracks. I do this by hunting them down in their own sick world, but I also strive to educate the public. Knowledge really is power. Knowing how these monsters operate gives us all the power to see them and stop them before they can harm a child.

If you are affiliated with a school or parent's organization, or if you'd just like more information on how to keep kids safe, please contact me. I am in the process of putting together a seminar/teaching session to present to schools and groups." (Dated March 11, 2007)

And from here: suesviews2 . blogspot . com/2006_10_01_archive.html
"Sorry for the lack of posting latey, but I've been pretty busy lately and now I can show you why. As some of you know, I've been actively involved in fighting pedophiles. Now, along with my brother, I have a new site dedicated to fighting monsters on the web.

so come on over and take a look at Warriors For Innocence We've got some great plans in the works over there." (Dated October 10, 2006)

This definitely sounds like someone with a personal vendetta, NOT a legitimate organization.

Link: http://www.journalfen.net/community/fandom_wank/1084243.html?thread=152600403#t152600403

I hope this helps in researching the legal status of WfI...
May. 30th, 2007 09:29 am (UTC)
I'm interested to know what changed between May 9 and yesterday. The WFI site has attributed the following to the LJ Abuse Team:

"Further, we regard the description of an illegal activity, an interest in an illegal activity, fantasizing about illegal activity, or even admitting to an illegal activity as something other than the commission of that activity. That is to say: writing a LiveJournal entry about having sexual attraction to minors is different than using LiveJournal to solicit a minor for sexual contact. The first is something on which we are unable to take any action; the second is something that we would consider actionable. In this case the story to which you have linked is disturbing. However, as the user describes it as "just a story," absent any accompanying imagery or incitement, there is no action we can take."
May. 30th, 2007 10:29 am (UTC)
My guess is that WfI took advantage of the stupid "Plus" accounts and their ads. And got some important advertiser riled up.

May. 30th, 2007 10:18 am (UTC)
I think this clarifies LJ's position a bit:

May. 30th, 2007 10:32 am (UTC)
I have serious privacy issues with this crowd.
I take serious issue with this crowd (Warriorofinnocience) trawling for pictures of children and "evaluating" the context of that post and the persons commenting.

I've asked LJ to Bar their IP address on these grounds.
May. 30th, 2007 11:41 am (UTC)
Not a lawyer in the very least, but... I just have two issues of general complaint with their action:

1. the lack of time to corect all and any offensive behaviour. They say in their rules that suspension is a last resort action that will only be warranted by a refusal to correct / delete problematic material. They're saying that the presence of userinfo interests will automatically reflect on posts -- however, they're giving no time if, say, you want to edit both your userinfo and those posts influenced by it. The only means by which immediate action is somehow not against their own policy is the assumption that every post will represent every 'cute' interest, which is just stupid, because it posits that every post must categorically represent every interest one has. Some coms and people have over 100 interests, some of which contradicting the others. That'd just not be a plausible argument on their part.

2. I understand that it is general policy that a user's violation of a contract s/he's enter will lead to their exclusively suffering the consequences. As such, it makes some semblance of sense that if your paid accounts gets suspended, you should not get [at least fully] refunded. However, what Livejournal itself is saying is that they understand some LJs are just not going to contain posts either reflective of or in full support of their userinfo interests [the implication being that they merely haven't the time and resources to check every one of a person's entries - completely understandable].

But if they have no proof beyond a report, and this is a loss of money [ not to say that this a loss of personal involvement is not valuable, merely that I think there's still the prejudice that money tends to be more 'substantial' in legal contexts ], does it not make sense that their inability / unwillingness to look into the matter very thoroughly should warrant a refund for those months of paid account activity now rendered invalid due to the suspension?
May. 30th, 2007 11:55 am (UTC)
If a paid account was suspended, the owner should first ask LJ for a refund. If no refund is paid, there may be legal remedies. However, for free accounts, LJ can boot you at any time, for any reason.
May. 30th, 2007 06:01 pm (UTC)
But they're not claiming "oh, we have the right to drop you any time." They're claiming *violation of TOS: you are promoting illegal activity and we could be held liable*.
(no subject) - night101owl - May. 30th, 2007 10:03 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - house_illrepute - May. 30th, 2007 06:08 pm (UTC) - Expand
May. 30th, 2007 12:04 pm (UTC)
I am not one to say WfI is stretching the truth, but if they were so worried about the children being exposed to pedos, why have did they not contact Law Enforcment back in January of 2006, when WoI first began their campaign against LJ?
May. 30th, 2007 01:04 pm (UTC)
Just one little question, this headline:

"LiveJournal – Six Apart Delete Hundreds of Pedophile Sites" doesn't it constitute libel?

Especially if a purged journal was a support group or such.
May. 30th, 2007 01:16 pm (UTC)
But when you trawl for tuna you catch dolphins too--saying that something is in a fishnet isn't the same as saying it's a tuna.
(no subject) - alloy_ - May. 30th, 2007 01:22 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - executrix - May. 30th, 2007 01:27 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - alloy_ - May. 30th, 2007 01:35 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - emzebel - May. 30th, 2007 02:17 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - alloy_ - May. 30th, 2007 02:23 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - bookshop - May. 30th, 2007 01:37 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - richandme - May. 30th, 2007 03:19 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - unfilthy - May. 31st, 2007 03:37 pm (UTC) - Expand
May. 30th, 2007 02:08 pm (UTC)
Okay damn it.

If this Warriors for the Innocence cannot produce a valid piece of paper noterizing that they are a legitimate organization, ie: 501c3 Number if they are nonprofit, or some other identification with the IRS that they are legitimate, (which by the way, THEY ARE OBLIGATED TO DIVULGE which law enforcement agency they work for) then they are a fraud and you are LETTING them harrass you.

The best way to scare them off is to threaten to contact your state's attorney general's office for to see if your A.G. can dig up anything on them and if they continue to harrass you, contact WFI and tell them that they will be speaking to your own lawyer as you will be suing for harrassment and that will not look good for them with the Million Dollar lawsuit.
May. 30th, 2007 02:18 pm (UTC)
Do they ever claim to be a non-profit or even organized? The stated claim is that they are a blog - if they are soliciting donations, that would be one thing, but otherwise, there's nothing to report to the IRS.
(no subject) - tamibrandt - May. 30th, 2007 02:31 pm (UTC) - Expand
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(no subject) - executrix - May. 30th, 2007 02:20 pm (UTC) - Expand
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( 248 comments — Leave a comment )
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