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I am addressing this very seriously to EVERY lawyer with legal expertise in copyright infringement and fair use, and I'm also addressing this to any lawyer well-versed in the legal statutes on internet child pornography.

As I'm sure many of you already know, pornish_pixies was permanently deleted today by Livejournal.com, along with a number of other communities with "incest" as an interest, an incomplete list of which is here.


Straight up, people. What are our options as a fandom to fight this? What are all our options to fight this, and how can we as a fandom collectively work to deal with Six Apart in this issue?

Please respond, because I really, really want to get started on the part where the fandom rallies together to make our voices heard by Six Apart.

Thanks.

Comments

femmequixotic
May. 30th, 2007 01:25 am (UTC)
As mod of pornish_pixies I would welcome any and all legal opinions as to what could be done on my part to help.

It's been suggested by several people to me that as one of the individuals affected I submit a lawyer-approved petition/complaint to SixApart requesting reinstatement of the comm based on the FAQ. Is that possible? Is it even a good idea?
elements
May. 30th, 2007 01:30 am (UTC)
I work in an internet nonprofit center at a university that has a legal clinic on cyberlaw. Obviously I can't speak for the clinic team but it seems to me that this is something they would be interested in hearing about. If you want to talk to the clinic folks, 100% confidentially of course, to inquire about this kind of thing, I would be happy either to facilitate that or to provide you their contact information.
(Screened comment)
heidi8
May. 30th, 2007 01:50 am (UTC)
Aja, I wasn't sure you wanted your phone number public where it's possible that the Warrior-people might read it, so I screened the post when I couldn't get you on YM. If you want it unscreened, YM me and I'll do so.
bookshop
May. 30th, 2007 03:05 am (UTC)

Thank you! I had her call me because I was losing my laptop battery and I didn't have my backup so I was in route to a computer lab and did not have time to screen.
belleweather
May. 30th, 2007 02:01 am (UTC)
I think this would be a really good idea. I don't think that a class action suit would be appropriate (see my response to Heidi), but I do think this would be a great way to push back -- especially if there were a way to get other members of the community involved; perhaps people who have posted to pornish_pixies or had deleted journals?

I don't buy LJ's legal arguments about their liability. But they've shown over and over and over that it's something they're really concerned about and that legal threats get results. God knows that concerned users don't... I had the misfortune of being around during NippleGate in the parenting communities, which showed that pretty clearly.
elements
May. 30th, 2007 03:51 am (UTC)
That's the real issue to me. I don't know if there's necessarily a legal argument against LJ - the only thing I guess would be if they violated their own TOS or Abuse procedures in any way in the handling of these specific cases. Unless there's something that protects a user against a TOS being applied in an overbroad manner, ie equating objectionable interests to illegal interests?

There absolutely is an argument that can be made by users, en masse, with legal backing, that LJ's cry of legal liability is insincere, and that LJ should either publicly admit that it just doesn't want to stand behind all of its users, or work with its users and lawyers to find a way to make the Abuse process sane for innocent journals caught in the crossfire. It should not be possible for the mere report that a journal has an undesirable (not illegal!) interest listed to *require* LJ to suspend that account permanently. They can't hide behind US law when incest is not illegal, and is certainly not illegal to talk about.

I mean, incest is not the same thing as paedophilia. The argument that having an interest listed can be equated with encouraging others to engage in an activity is a bit of a stretch to me, but even if you accept that, as far as I'm aware, not being a lawyer or ever having investigated, I don't believe that consensual incest between adults is actually illegal (no matter how squicky). And if it's not actually illegal to do, then how could it be illegal to somehow incite others to consider doing it by listing it as an interest? So LJ's argument about being legally forced into this falls apart, and it's revealed as a PR game all along.
unperfectwolf
May. 30th, 2007 03:58 am (UTC)
LJ should either publicly admit that it just doesn't want to stand behind all of its users, or work with its users and lawyers to find a way to make the Abuse process sane for innocent journals caught in the crossfire.

Or they could make a post at all. Somewhere. It would be nice.
(no subject) - greeneyedtengu - May. 30th, 2007 08:22 pm (UTC) - Expand
elfwreck
May. 30th, 2007 04:08 am (UTC)
Pedophilia is not illegal either. ACTING on it is illegal.

Consensual incest between adults is illegal for some values of "incest," which varies by state. Incest in the non-legal sense of "sex with a relative" may or may not be illegal, depending on state. (In some states, first cousins may marry; in others, they may not. Many people would call it incest in either case.) Incest, like "violence" is a general term for a range of actions, some of which are crimes.

belleweather
May. 30th, 2007 04:33 am (UTC)
There absolutely is an argument that can be made by users, en masse, with legal backing, that LJ's cry of legal liability is insincere, and that LJ should either publicly admit that it just doesn't want to stand behind all of its users, or work with its users and lawyers to find a way to make the Abuse process sane for innocent journals caught in the crossfire. It should not be possible for the mere report that a journal has an undesirable (not illegal!) interest listed to *require* LJ to suspend that account permanently. They can't hide behind US law when incest is not illegal, and is certainly not illegal to talk about.

Exactly. I don't think there's grounds for a lawsuit (at least, not a successful one) but I absolutely think that there needs to be a strong reply from the community and that that reply needs to have legal backing -- something more than the lawyers in fandom. I'd love to see some of the legal academics working in internet and society law putting their names behind this, actually. It's just been my experience that even a loud public outcry by a large number of users and even activists gets ignored and poo-poohed by Six Apart, and I'm wracking my brain trying to figure out ways to make a stronger statement that will be listened to.
(no subject) - bookshop - May. 30th, 2007 04:35 am (UTC) - Expand
tropes
May. 30th, 2007 12:41 pm (UTC)
That's something that really threw me -- incest is not illegal! How can they include it under a list of illegal activities?
Jaysus.
(no subject) - heidi8 - May. 30th, 2007 01:20 pm (UTC) - Expand
chrome_animagus
May. 30th, 2007 06:44 am (UTC)
I want to add what was said in this post. I'm sorry I can't add more.
elsie
May. 30th, 2007 10:54 pm (UTC)
Wonderful link! Thank you.

This is what I had to say in response to that post ... I'm thinking about putting it out there to more people, as a serious suggestion, if that hasn't been done already.
elsie
May. 30th, 2007 11:12 pm (UTC)
Er, so I don't think that link will actually take you to the specific comment for whatever reason that I've stupidly missed, but what I said was ...

Someone on my flist pointed out earlier that threatening not to renew or buy paid accounts is unlikely to mean anything to SixApart. They'll still be making money even off free accounts because of advertisers.

So what I'm proposing is that we consider banding together, making backups/archives of our journal content ... and then delete them ourselves en masse.

It's drastic, I know, but I can't think of anything else powerful enough for the little people to do.

Oh, and the same friend mentioned that by doing all this AND explaining why and how they're doing it, SixApart is actually helping actual criminals or advocators of sexual crime by driving them deeper underground. By now word has traveled fast enough that the people they should be worrying about have gotten rid of the evidence. Maybe we should mention that in our phone calls.

OOH. I KNOW. What if our BNFs all called in and pointed out that they do in fact have the power to enlist mad numbers of people to delete journals?
(no subject) - viewpoints - May. 31st, 2007 04:51 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - bookshop - May. 31st, 2007 05:03 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - elsie - May. 31st, 2007 05:07 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - midnight__moon - May. 31st, 2007 05:12 am (UTC) - Expand
sashatwen
May. 31st, 2007 07:01 am (UTC)
Somebody at fandom_lawyers recommended Electronic Frontier Coundation, a non-profit organization that offers advice and legal help on digital rights.

http://www.eff.org/

They have a telephone support line.

I am just passing along information somebody else gave, but maybe it will help? Wish I could do more...
This Community should be used for informative and educational purposes only or to give the public a general understanding of the law.
Nothing in this community, its posts or the comments thereto should be considered as specific advice. Your access to and use of this Community means that you understand and acknowledge that no attorney-client relationship exists between you and any poster or commenter hereto, and that the Community should not be used as a substitute for competent legal advice from a licensed professional attorney/counselor/solicitor in your jurisdiction.

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